Wednesday, May 6, 2009

Oppose HR 397

American citizens: Please email your member of Congress and ask them to refuse to co-sponsor "House Resolution 397" and oppose all efforts to move this resolution forward. This "Christian nation" resolution states that YOU AND YOUR GOVERNMENT:

"recognize the religious foundations of faith on which America was built are critical underpinnings of our Nation's most valuable institutions and form the inseparable foundation for America's representative processes, legal systems, and societal structures."

It tries to form a legal basis for introducing religion to the "Nation's public buildings and educational resources" and tries to solidify keeping "under God" in the pledge.

Your help is needed! Contact your congressional representative now!

http://action.secular.org/t/5367/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=27204

48 comments:

BAWDYSCOT said...

Why should we worry about this; those Democrats in Congress will stop this from becoming law, won't they?

csm said...

I hope so, but politicians kowtow to the religious even if they themselves aren't really particulary religious... gotta do it to get elected... so they might be spineless fucks and allow this unconstitutional piece of shit to pass...

csm said...

By the way, I "sensed" the tone of your comment/question Bawdy (at least I think I did), but chose to answer the question straight...

G said...

I assume you are equally horrified by the Democrats in Hawaii:

Hawaii Lawmakers Pass Bill to Create 'Islam Day'

csm said...

Yes, that sucks bad, too! Being that it is only for one state, I would not say I am "equally" as horrified. But I don't like it either. The point I think you're trying to make is that it is a different religion (which I don't care about, all religions are bad IMHO). Or maybe it is the Dem part? They are just as ridiculous as Reps who try to push religion into government policy or legislation.

G said...

Just making sure your anti-religion crusade is consistent.

I read through the text of the HR (although I admit I skimmed through most of the "Whereas..." statements). I realize you are opposed to any mention of religion or a god by any government agency. But this bill really doesn't do anything meaningful.

The thing I consider troubling is that our congressional leaders spend so much time on these useless declarations... and steroids in sports... and all the other things that are a waste of time.

BAWDYSCOT said...

It because it makes them look like they are fucking doing something besides reaching into our pockets to pull out whatever they deem superfluous income. Now if a working girl would do that, we would get something in return; but the government, well I have never been one to take kindly to "bend over and spread 'em". I am just not that kind of guy.

Here is a question for everybody...How many investigations does our federal government perform on itself in a given year? I don't know of a set number, but I have to feel the number would be indicative of an organization that is inefficient and inept. Did Nancy Pelosi(and I am just using her because she was in the news yesterday, most of them are dipshits)know of waterboarding of prisoners before all the waterboarding shit hit the fan? Well, let's just have an investigation; we'll get to the bottom of it.

That libertarian island in the middle of the ocean is lookin' better and better.

Anonymous said...

I just emailed my senator and congressman and urged them to pass the bill. The bill reflects accurately our heritage.

Thanks for making me aware.

csm said...

No problem, Anonymous. I hope this liberal, atheist blog makes you aware of a lot more. Hell, just reading the enlightened posts here can help to bring you out of the dung-infested closet in which you reside...

BAWDYSCOT said...

Dung-infested closet...If I can help anyone out of a dung-infested closet my life is worthwhile!

Anonymous said...

It would appear that most of the people leaving comments on this blog are as clueless as congress is on the matter. Has any one of you even read the May flower compact? The very people who came to this country to make a new start were persecuted Christians. They started the first schools and ran the first prisons. 99% of the founding Fathers were Christian by their own accord. President Washington held church in the White house. We are a Christian nation founded by Christians, and the whole thing didn't start to run a muck until people as your self's started taking God out of everything.

Anonymous said...

You all have the right to believe as you choose but denying the truth doesn't change it. This country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. Like it or not!

dan said...

if it wasnt for our christian ideals you would not be able to post this very blog to show the hate you have for us. freedom is a 2 edged sword

Bastion said...

Denying that we have a Christian heritage and Christian roots in this country is pure ignorance. We were not discovered, settled, and founded by a group of atheists that fled their countries of origin to find a land of ignorance and malcontent towards any religious beliefs. Christianity is freedom, love, understanding and forgiveness toward any and all, while maintaining our rights and what we know to be the absolute truth in all of creation.
I hope that you and your ilk are not those who assume that all Christians are ignorant and know nothing outside of what you would call religion. Many of us, like everyone else in this life, have gone through the hardest times and done countless hours of researching and studying to discover the truth of it all. Some of us are luckier than others in that regard. Trim the fat off of the nonsense of this world, remove the beam from your own eye before you attack the sliver in others.

BAWDYSCOT said...

"The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason & right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that it's protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion." The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of it's protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and infidel of every denomination."

These are the words of Thomas Jefferson and they are found in his Autobiography. Basically as I read it, he and many of the other Founders, were not excluding Christianity, but they were not promoting it above any other belief, because this country was going to become an experiment of the individual, not a, or any, group of individuals. And if you really want to get technical, the biggest reason the Founders went this way was because of the way the Protestants were treating the Quakers(so Bastion, this says much about the Christian way with freedom, love, understanding and forgiveness while the Quaker churches were burning).

And, anonymous, not every soul who landed here were your beloved pilgrims, most of the new Americans who settled the South were more interested in making a fine living(and nothing wrong with that)than they were in living their austere life for Christ. Sure most were Christians, but that isn't why they came here. To say this country was created as a refuge for Christians is like saying guns kill people.

No, I say this country was created to expand the realm of the individual, the thinking individual. They didn't call it the Age of Reason or the Enlightenment because of an absolute adherence to the Good Book. The Bill of Rights are a list of individual rights. The Constitution is a control on the federal government over our individual rights. So this isn't a group thing, it is an experiment, and one of the only, in the possibility when the individual is free to accomplish whatever it is they want.

Lou said...

Jefferson was in France when the Constitution was written. Why do some many individuals quote Jefferson as if he was the sole author and his opinion is the beginning and the end. We have a Christian heritage. Even the elementary school books point that out.

Jerry Sherman CA said...

READ IT FOR YOURSELF! This bill does not introduce ANYTHING. It simply acknowleges what has been said. This would help to thwart the efforts of people and organizations (such as this one) from spreading lies and trying to rewrite history. Lets not forget our true heritage of this country and what made it so great.

Ceroill said...

For that matter, the original colonists were not here founding what we now call The United States of America. They were founding a religiously dissident but politically still loyal British colony.
"In God We Trust" has not always been on our money, nor was the phrase "Under God" part of the original Pledge of Allegiance. They were added much later.

True- Jefferson was not personally responsible for the Constitution. But neither were the original colonists here.

Now, if the contention is that the broad strokes of European culture and by extension American culture derive in some large measure from the influences of Judaism and Christianity, I agree.

However, if the contention is that our nation as it was officially founded (not the colonies, the USA) is or ever was intended to be officially Christian, then I strenuously disagree.

csm said...

It is amazing how threatened the religios (mostly christians) are by this little blog.

Welcome, Dan. Your viewpoint is very odd to me, though. Is it really your assertion that christianity welcomes freethought and expression? Tell that to Galileo. And all those tortured during the inquisition. And...

Welcome to you, too, Bastion. You are misinformed, too. Regardless of the actual belief (or lack of belief) of any of the "founders" of this nation, the absolutely founded a country in which religion had not part in the government. And "Christianity is freedom..."? Really? Wow. Me and my ilk think that viewpoint is nuts.

BAWDYSCOT said...

Lou, Bastion, Jerry and Anonymous,

Are you telling me I am incorrect when I say our Constitution was more a delineation of our individual civil rights and a governor over the federal government than a love letter to Jesus Christ?

Also, any country in this world who has any past history of a Christian missionary setting foot on their territory has a "Christian heritage".

I have gone in record so many times in the past that I would defend unto the death the right for anyone to believe any way they want, but I refuse to substitute anyone else's belief for my own and I will not submit to some theological pigeonhole of this Republic of Free States and the pinnacle of the free individual.

If you really believe in your heart that this country would not exist if it weren't for the Bible, why the fuck is it not good enough to keep it in your heart instead of slathering it all over this land. Maybe this is why the rest of the world has so many problems with Christians(not Christianity); the audacity and pure arrogance which comes with the cornered market for the divine truth.

BAWDYSCOT said...

"This country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles."

The Constitution(which I consider to be the country's founding)used English common law as a starting point, not the Bible!

Anonymous said...

If you folks would all do your homework you would know that this country was founded on Christian principles. Please do go read and do some research. That is what the facts are wether you like it or not does not change it.

BAWDYSCOT said...

I am an atheist, anonymous, so where would you suggest I do my homework? What references should I use to come to the same realization you have?

I have no doubt the vast majority of settlers to this country were Christians; I AM JUST MAINTAINING THIS COUNTRY WASN'T FOUNDED JUST FOR CHRISTIANS, GODDAMN IT!

There I feel a little better.

And none of you are coming up with a cogent argument against what I have posted; that this country was founded so "individuals" of any ilk could pursue life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Oh, and you are right, Bob. In God We Trust wasn't always on our money, but one word has always been there, LIBERTY!

Ceroill said...

Anon- Can you find anywhere in the constitution where it says the USA has an official religion? Any official religion? Or even a statement that this is a 'Christian Nation'? How about in the Declaration of Independence? If you can find those specific statements then I'm sure there are hundreds of constitutional scholars and lawyers who would love you to point them out. Nobody has found them yet.

Everything I've ever read, heard, or been taught tells me this is a secular nation, not a theocracy.

As I said before, if your argument is simply that many of the social attitudes of Europe and America originate ultimately from the Abrahamic faiths, then I would agree. But not if you're claiming this is a religiously based nation.

Anonymous said...

Those of us that read the BIBLE and have recognized it as the actual TRUTH of ALL that IS in the Universe, Really recognize that those who have rejected or just haven't been presented with what is the TRUTH,
MAY never experience the LOVE, JOY, and PEACE, that comes with ALLOWING OUR MAKER to influence our daily decisions.
I have to wonder what it is that you are opposing. Denying the TRUTH does not change it. It just keeps someone in the dark, believing lies. Making decisions based on lies.

Accepting JESUS as the TRUTH is a GOOD think, no the BEST thing for EVERYONE !!! That includes YOU!!
MAY GOD BLESS YOU as you find the TRUTH. ..Scott..

BAWDYSCOT said...

So what you are saying is the reference you want me to read on how this country became a "Christian Nation" is the Bible? Somehow I knew this was not going to be an intellectual exercise.


I have already reserved my place in hell anony, so go save someone else, someone more accommodating.

Cheers, csm! Huzzah!

Ceroill said...

Anon, if you want to live in a country run by the bible, then you're perfectly free to go and found a theocracy someplace. The USA isn't one now and never has been one.

hard medicine said...

As for God and America's interests...

If we are the product of random protoplasm, protected only by this years version of elected political lawyers and legislators, we will always be subject to man and his persuations...good and evil...think of Zimbabwe, China, or the laws of societies past.
In order to build a sound society with strong moral leadership we must be able to clearly share an understanding of what's right and wrong. Grey areas, inspired by 'relativism' allows each person his own opinion of 'truth'. I ask you all...How can we have more than one version of truth?

To give you an example of how truths change even here in America...

In the early 1800s it was perfectly acceptable for two men to settle their disputes through 'duels' (10 paces, turn and fire your gun). Can't do that today because society has changed. In the early 1900s it was OK for children to work the coal mines 12 hours a day. Can't do that anymore either as society's opinion has changed.

Whereas these changes could be viewed as societal improvements, there are examples which might not. The elimination of capital punishment and the addition of gay marriage being controversial examples. Can we call these societal changes horendous degeneration... or much needed societal sophistication? Depends on who you ask, but each would think themselves right.

The broader point, societal standards change. As a five decade member of the human race I can attest to that. Human perceptions, attitudes and feelings are always being reconsidered against current 'norm' of the world. This flux is being based on convenient momentary interests, not neccessarily furthering ultimate 'truth'.

Depending on the moral fiber of any specific society laws can become dangerous. As mentioned consider Zimbabwe where martial law is enforced. Or China, where females have a much more dangerous infancy than males. Is it possible that China's laws are closer to the truth than ours? Is one right and the other wrong? Are both right? Why?

Which do you believe in and who sets the standard for truth?

To sort this out we must first define truth...

1. Relative truth- Truth that is true at only one time and at one place. It's true to some people and not to others. It's true now but it may not have been true in the past and it may not be again in the future, it's always subject to change. It is also subject to the perspective of people

2. Absolute truth- Whatever is true at one time and at one place is true at all time's and at all places. What is true for one person is true for all. Truth is true whether we believe it or not. Truth is discovered or it is revealed, it is not invented by a culture or by religious men.

Thankfully our Declaration of Independence states: "...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." It is this statement which sets the 'truth standard' for where we navigate as a country.

Remove it (remove God from the equation) and we are that random protoplasm, following relative truth, at the mercy of powerful men who shape it as a convenience for personal interests.

This is why America has been the greatest country on the face of the earth for 232 years. 'Truth' was based on recognizing the creator's perfect version, not mans convenient version.

The point is we have a Christian heritage within our government and it’s what has made us great. Take the time to read how deeply embedded it is:
http://www.aclj.org/media/pdf/ACLJ_HRes397_051109.pdf

Should we enact laws to beat people over the head with this fact...NO. Should we enact laws to remind people of this fact...YES, and always remember…’the truth’ will be served- despite man’s best efforts to distort it.

csm said...

Dear raving lunatic, err, ah, hard medicine:

Relativism is a good thing! It allows us to change based on furthering our knowledge and advancements in society. Even your precious religion changes. Think not? How many wives can a man have in "most" religions today? What about in biblical times?

Regarding your gay marriage canard, time and wisdom will prove the religious wackos wrong, just like they were proven wrong about slavery, racism, etc. Over time, humanity moves forward and what once were thought to be wise standards (e.g. inter-racial marriage) become accepted norms. There are no examples of things moving to become more oppressive when it comes to rights. Gay rights WILL happen, eventually.

And your Declaration of Independence example is just plain laughable. That statement you pull out as a self-evident truth is, actually, NOT A TRUTH AT ALL. I speak of "...that all men are created equal..." Actually, all PEOPLE are born equal - not just MEN. This is the danger of taking something written years ago and treating it as gospel truth. We need to change our mindset and the way we act as humanity grows and learns. Religion does nothing but stunt that growth.

Furthermore, the DI does not say GOD, it says Creator. My creators are my Mom and Dad.

And the USA does not have "a Christian heritage within our government" no matter how hard christian wack-a-doodles want to make it so!

Lou said...

Your mom and dad created you? What are you a robot! Hilarious! Ok I Robot, go to your leader.

csm said...

Your Mom and Dad, didn't? What are you, a clone? A cyborg? Truly laughable!

Lou said...

Yes, I routinely claim credit for the creation of electricity when I flip the light switch on. You are a hilarious guy CSM.

csm said...

So if your gawd created you why do we need parents and sex at all. Nothing up his sleeve, presto change-o, one Lou made to order by gawd!

Lou said...

What is gawd? Is that like a like the Pakistani restaurant in Queens? They create up some good dishes but not much beyond that.

csm said...

Gawd is a made up deity worshiped by many.

Anonymous said...

I'm a true believer--there are miracles around us every day if we're not to blind to see them.

But what has that to do with our government? Government should never endorse religion(s).

Some of the responses here seem to want to convince atheists that they should believe in God. Again, that has nothing to do with government.

God help us!

Anonymous said...

Rather than sit here and argue with people who don't quite understand the dangers of what HR 397 could do to this country, I'm going to instead put down here an essay written by the Rev. James Huber. He said:

"I frequently hear Christians claim that the United States is a Christian nation, or that the Founding Fathers intended us to be a Christian nation. When they bother to offer evidence it's usually some McCarthy-era addition to our pledge or our money, or some quote (often bogus) from a speech or a letter by one of the Founding Fathers.

Think about this for a second: If you were starting a Christian nation, how would you go about it? Would you make oblique references to "Great Powers" and "Guiding Hands" in obscure speeches and letters, or would you fill your foundational documents with references to Jesus Christ and the Bible?

The Founding Fathers were brilliant men. They spent months and months working on the Constitution. They were very, very careful about what they wrote, discussing and debating every passage at great length. It seems to me that if they had intended this to be a Christian nation they would have said so somewhere in the Constitution. The Founding Fathers had no reason to be vague. There was no ACLU, no "Activist judges." If they had wanted a Christian Nation they could have written:

God Almighty, in Order to form a true Christian Nation, establish Divine Justice, insure adherence to His Laws, provide for the defense of His Church, promote His Word, and secure His Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, has led us to ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Instead they wrote:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
The words "Jesus" "Christ" "Bible" "God" and even "Creator" appear nowhere in the Constitution ("Endowed by their Creator" is in the Declaration of Independence.) Just how stupid would someone have to be to create a Christian nation then forget to mention Christ in the Constitution?

Also notice that nobody ever asks what the Founding Mothers might have said. There were no Founding Mothers. The Founders were all men; White men, many of them slave owners. White male slave owners who may or may not have been Christians, but explicitly forbade any kind of religious test for office. In other words, you have a far stronger case if you'd like to argue that the Founding Fathers intended us to be a racist and sexist nation.

I think you can make a good case that some or even most of the Founding Fathers were Christians, but it's absurd to think that they wanted to impose that belief on the nation, and even more absurd to imagine we should be bound by their prejudices."

This man is absolutely right.

Anonymous said...

PS>> Actually one of the main things studied was the Roman government and how it worked (senate? dur? congress? house? DUR? DOES THIS RING A BELL?)

Hypocrisy Police said...

"If they had wanted a Christian Nation they could have written:"

Yeah, and if they wanted a nation without prayer in schools, 10 commandments on court houses they would have stated it clearly and made these practices against the law form the BEGINNING. They would have NEVER prayed before a session of congress or read Scripture.

If they wanted abortion on demand, a right to gay marriage or a right to socialized medicine they would have stated that as well.

You can't have it both ways. Stop pasting others words and think for yourself.

csm said...

Thank you, anonymous, your comments are welcomed (at least they are by me).

csm said...

Yo, Hypocrisy Police, calm the fuck down. I don't hear atheists claiming that we are "An Atheist Nation!" But I do hear christians claiming this is a Christian nation all the time. It ain't... and it never was!

rgw said...

Why are those who identify themselves as "atheist freethinkers" so obsessed with God that they feel a need to advertise their non-belief and proselytize others. One must conclude that their insecurity is matched only by their lack of imagination. If Man could explain God He wouldn't be God. If you have no faith, keep it to yourself.
I see that you have only one follower. You have a long way to go to catch up. Get a life!
Don't bother to reply. I only found your silly site by accident and I won't be back although I have said a prayer for you; that you'll figure it out as I have for I was once as ego driven and delusional as you.

Craig S Mullins said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
csm said...

{sarcasm on}
Yes, it is the atheists who proselytize. Yes, yes.
{sarcasm off}

What a clueless bastard you are rgw. I don't give a fiddler's fuck whether you believe in god, yahweh, or some other great sky daddy. I just don't want those beliefs funded by government or forced down my throat. That is not proselytizing, it is protection from religious preselytizing.

Jos2061 said...

The beliefs that you are so worried about being shoved down your throat are what this country was founded on. Religion is a part of everything in this country (and other parts of the world) because all things come from God, or Allah, or Skydaddy -- whatever you want to call him -- there is a higher power. To take religion out of our government is like taking the tail off a dog. You just can't "wag" without it. Just because you choose not to be a believer doesn't mean everything has to change to suit your purpose. Why should the way the government runs change because you don't believe? Just as you think it's unfair . . . . I think it's unfair for you to expect others to accommodate your minority view. I don't mean to rile you . . . . just an observation . . . . . found this site while doing some research . . . . and yes, I will say a prayer for you. :)

csm said...

Well, Jos2061, you are 100 percent wrong. This country was NOT founded as a religious country, nor as a christian country. Nowhere in our Constitution is there any requirement to believe in a god. The only mentions are to forbid religious tests.

And to cite something CRAZY from your little comment, you say "Religion is a part of everything"... OK, then religion is a part of the Gay Pride Parade and abortion.

Way It IS said...

"OK, then religion is a part of the Gay Pride Parade and abortion."

Very true, it is called sin.

There is no religious test in the Constitution because we have freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. The founders practiced their religion from SCOTUS, POTUS to the Congress. It is our heritage.

csm said...

You are truly deluded and I hold out no hope that you can be educated as to reality. If you are truly interested in educating yourself, try this link: http://www.skeptically.org/thinkersonreligion/id9.html