Monday, June 30, 2008

Good Points, General!

Retired General Wesley Clark, a former presidential candidate in 2004 and a war veteran and commander raised a valid question about John McCain's "war hero" status that has been a long time coming IMHO.

"[McCain] hasn't held executive responsibility," Clark said on "Face the Nation" yesterday. "That large squadron in the Navy that he commanded -- that wasn't a wartime squadron. I don't think getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president."

Yes, McCain should get our profound thanks for serving his country, but he seems to want more. He wants to be viewed as a hero. But a hero does extraordinary things. McCain got shot down and spent years in prison. Yes, this is valid service. No, it is not heroic in the same way that taking a bullet or leading troops to safety would be... you know, like John Kerry did.


Anony Mouse said...

What exactly is the point? McCain has never referred to himself as a hero. That is the media and other Americans. He rarely discusses his service or even the service of his two sons. I believe Clark has been recruited by the Obama to accelerate the McCain smear. How long can Bill hold out? So again what is the point? McCain's has plenty of government service that dwarfs Obama’s' and he is a hero for serving so bravely.

csm said...

Well, mouse, you make many an unsubstantiated claim there.

Now you may be right (well, you ARE right, but you may be correct, too) that Clark was recruited by Obama, but Obama has already gone on the record that he does not agree with Clark on this.

I do, however, find it interesting that the Democrats are not just sitting back and waiting for the attacks, but initiating some of their own this time. I'm not a big fan of attack politics, but the Reps have shown election after election that they will smear and fight and belittle the Dems, so I hope the Dems take it to 'em this time. Not Obama personally, though. That way he can continue to run on his completely positive and hopeful statements.

coreydbarbarian said...

i see things a little differently.

imo, mccain deserves a bit more respect. for me, at least, i respect 5 1/2 yrs of torture every bit as much as i would respect a soldier taking a bullet. i think wesley clark was auditioning for vp on this one, and failed.

i do agree with alot of what gen. clark said, but the requisite diplomacy was lacking. and the timing! oy. you just know all the vets will be chewing on this one all weekend long.

all that said, this comment is nothing compared to the swiftboating and purple heart bandaids that the republicans wallowed in last cycle.

i think clark went off script slightly, and by doing so, he upped bill richardsons chances at vp.

coreydbarbarian said...

also, the notion that mccain rarely discusses his service is pretty much bullshit. he mentions it, his staff mentions it, and the surogates mention it constantly.

his two sons, not so much. which is smart. i mean, they're out there still.

csm said...

Actually, I don't think you should rule out Joe Biden as Veep. Richardson might be viewed as problematic if Obama's camp want to appeal more to Hillary's voters. A lot of folks in that campaign still feel like Richardson stabbed them in the back (he didn't) when he endorsed Obama. And Clark was always a long shot as Veep because I don't think he'd bring enough additional votes. Clark would make a great Sec of Defense though.

And yes, McCain deserves respect for living through torture. But again, does that raise him up to the level of a war hero? To me, no, and it is a discussion worth floating (not by Obama, of course).

coreydbarbarian said...

i would actually prefer biden, in terms of ability and know-how. it's just that i think richardson would help swing some of the southwest states into the blue.

i agree completely on clark as secretary of defense. and i've always said biden would make a GREAT secretary of state (or veep).

which positions do you think obama would grant to republicans, though? and who? i'm sure he will have a bipartisan cabinet, as bill clinton did before him. but who, and where? as long as we're speculatin', that is. :D

Anony Mouse said...

CSM you may be Left behind on this one. Left and Right are all relative terms but if they work for you. I do like to think I am right. Don't we all?

The thing that is ironic about this is that Clark in reality had nothing negative to say but in paints Obama's campaign as smear merchants. I hope they keep it up. Your claim that the Dems are the victims is really ridiculous. We all watched the Hillary vs. Obama cage match. As nasty as I have ever seen it. Ironically, Clark claimed Obama was not equipped to be president during that process and could he could not provide reasons for Obama on Meet the Press when pressed.

The swift boating of Kerry is not comparable to the attacks on McCain. Kerry was smeared by the very men he served with. He stupidly attacked his fellow servicemen when he came home and chunked his medals on returning. Sure the GOP took advantage just like any politicians would. I have never been one to hold a man responsible for something stupid he did as a young man so I did vote for him and I doubt it hurt him in the general election.

csm said...

OK, then, mouse. Give me an example of Obama smearing Hillary Clinton, please. I can't recall one. If it was as prominent as you claim you should have no problem providing several good examples...

And I agree that the swift-boating of Kerry was different... it was VERY MUCH WORSE. There is video evidence of those same jack asses who attacked Kerry previously exulting him. The right wing attack machine paid these folks off to impugn John Kerry, and Barack Obama will not let the same things happen to him... just watch.

csm said...

Interesting question corey... maybe Obama can give Christine Todd Whitman a chance to do things properly this time around? Maybe even Colin Powell? How about Lincoln Chafee? Maybe even Arlen Specter (but I doubt he'd agree with his health issues and a Democratic Pennsylvania governor assuring a Democrat replacing him in the Senate).


NPR was tossing around Powell for both candidates this morning.

coreydbarbarian said...

random ramblings...
left and right are relative terms..relative to the center, which is where both candidates want to be now.

cage match? more like a pillow fight. there were so few differences between hil & bam, all they could do was posture. i think the traditional media played the whole thing up to keep ratings going.

it seems clark is still making his point. here's a quick quote from abcnews:
"Clark, who described himself as "someone who came home from Vietnam on a stretcher," said being in combat doesn't necessarily qualify someone to be president.

"It depends on which level you served," Clark told "GMA."

Being a fighter pilot in the Navy "isn't the same as having been in the highest levels of the military and having to work with the president and other heads of the state and make those kinds of life or death decisions about national strategic issues."

Clark said McCain's experience as a squadron leader and his five years in a Vietnam POW camp "shows character and courage, but not necessarily judgment.

finally, i like your choices, csm. that's almost exactly what i came up with. except powell.

for the record, i'm still angry with powell over his u.n. speech. i really, really admired him. there were only two inspirational speechs (imo) at the 2004 conventions, barack obama and colin powell. they gave me hope.

powell has said he's done with politics. the most i expect from him now is (possibly) an obama endorsement.

now i'm depressed. can you spare a guinness, bawdy?

csm said...

Maybe Obama could save a cabinet position for John McCain... secretary of veteran's affairs?

(I'm not serious)



Powell was lied to and pressured to get on board with the administration along with many others. Everybody makes mistakes and I really do believe if Powell were given the chance to do it over he would have given Lush and Grainy the finger.

coreydbarbarian said...

thanks, csm. i spit milk all over my keyboard. sec of vet's affairs, indeed. ;)

bawdy, i understand. and i sincerely hope powell can "make it up" to the nation, the world. but i'm still sore about it.

it's weird how you can invest so much emotion in someone you'll never meet. i guess i had hoped he could somehow do the impossible, and keep this admin in line, give them morals and everything. i'm prolly not being fair to him; i realize that.

i do hope he gets a chance to restore his reputation. that's a start, i guess.

Anony Mouse said...

"being in combat doesn't necessarily qualify someone to be president."

Neither does sitting in the church pew of Rev Wright’s church for 20 years or serving in the Illinois state government for 7 years or holding up a sign for change or even giving a good speech. I sill see no point.

Here is the real concern. The Obama campaign views McCain's record in the military as a very serious threat. This is their way of attempting to squelch the threat. McCain’s service was over 30 years ago. Those who have served with McCain cannot praise him enough so therefore this is all they can do or in other words they cannot swiftboat him. McCain has watched the Obama campaign for the last 8 months and knew this was coming. Essentially Clark said nothing of any merit but keep it coming. What will he say next? “Two legs do not necessarily qualify someone to be president?”

coreydbarbarian said...


to think, i wondered last night if i was being fair to mouse.

thanks for clearing up that problem for me, mousey.

csm said...


csm said...

While we're considering Republicans for Preisdent Obama's cabinet we shouldn't forget the recent Republican convert Joe Lieberman.

Anony Mouse said...

I have slept well Corey but listen the burning is a good thing. Its like peroxide, it is needed for the cleansing to kill the bacteria in the wound. Let it burn and in a few weeks you will be able to see pass the partisan rhetoric. But sadly, I've seen your kind before and never do I expect fairness but just more of your tiny narrow worldview.

csm said...

OK, I'll give it a try (cognizant of the wall, Bawdy):

Y'see, mouse, your analogy is insipid. You compare something that folks are using to attack Obama (the stupid preacher bullshit) with something that McCain is trying to bolster his image with (veteran = presidential). It doesn't hold water and it just exposes you as a troll looking to spread right wing talking points whenever possible.

Then you equate Clark with Obama. Clark has unequivocally stated that Obama had nothing to do with Clark's statements. Of course, you will cling to the right wing talking points and keep trying to accuse Obama of something that Wes Clark said.

And finally, your last three sentences make an intelligent person's head ooze with pain. Are you saying Clark was wrong? Or that you disagree? What? "Nothing of merit?" Well, you just spent this entire comment trying to say that what Clark said was obvious. If it is so damn obvious why is he getting so much flack?

(I imagine that these are the type of things that caused the burning Corey, right?)

coreydbarbarian said...

exactly, csm. i don't see how a rational being can go from "Clark in reality had nothing negative to say" to "Essentially Clark said nothing of any merit" without short-circuiting. i mean, it is amusing, but only in a "logical inconsistancies tickle my brain" kind of way.

now, back to the speculatin' game.
how about kathleen sebelius as obama's veep, clark as sec/def, biden as sec/state, richardson as national security advisor, and joe lie-berman as official white house lawn scooper of poop? i hear the obama's have promised their kids a dog...i'd also like to see dennis kucinich stand outside the white house wearing an emerald green jockey outfit, holding a lantern.
that would just be fun. :D

coreydbarbarian said...

oh boy. the main stream media is getting pretty bent about all this. talk about taking things out of context... :(

csm said...

Watching the video at that link Corey just gets my blood boiling. I hate lying, screaming assholes who don't let others talk. That blonde, whoever the hell she is, will be in my nightmares. She misstated what Clark said and wouldn't let the sane man get a word in edgewise. That's why I can't watch those hate-spewing talking head shows.

Anony Mouse said...

Well at the risk of wasting valuable keystrokes here it goes.

“You compare something that folks are using to attack Obama (the stupid preacher bullshit) with something that McCain is trying to bolster his image with (veteran = presidential).”

Actually you are just wrong CSM since these are major events in their lives. I am comparing periods of character development and let us not forgot how Obama extolled his preacher not so long ago. The comparison is McCain and his military service and Obama with his 20 year spiritual mentor. A political maneuver to flee his mentor doesn’t make it go away but it does expose his decision making skills. Military does bolster McCain while Obama’s 20 years with Wright hurts him but they both reflect their ability to make decisions.

“Clark has unequivocally stated that Obama had nothing to do with Clark's statements.”

Irrelevant since Clark is part of the campaign as a surrogate and Obama has not fired him. The good cop bad cop routine is just more political BS. Obama makes a weekly apology and I’m sure he will apologize by name eventually. Clark also claimed Obama was not experienced enough to be president when he was on Hillary’s payroll. What’s changed? Money or promise of a reward?

“If it is so damn obvious why is he getting so much flack?”

His sole purpose has been to attempt to diminish McCain but anyone who truly listened found it stupid. You would need to ask Wesley why they would say something so stupid. No one has claimed McCain in qualified based solely on his military experience. It really is a shame a man of so much integrity at one time has fell into this political sewage basin.

You seem to have this propensity to refer to all of us who do not support Obama as Right. Would this be a Bill Clinton right or James Dobson right?

csm said...

Anony Mouse = Ass Clown

Obama handled the pastor bullshit in an exemplary manner.

It is not irrelevant that Obama did not say what Clark said. Clark said it (and only in response to a question, go back and watch the actual footage, it is available everywhere). Obama publicly disagreed with Clark. No two individuals agree on every matter.

You have NO IDEA what anyone's "sole purpose" was or is. Stating that you do makes you an asshole. I'll reiterate, watch the footage. If you have a brain in your head (questionable) it is NOT what the screaming nutbags on TV are making it out to be.

coreydbarbarian said...

i love the way some folks want to make wright into this huge influence on obama. how many of those "20 years" was barack away to college at columbia, then harvard? how long ago did wright start to drift toward his current views? and has barack really tried to bolster his credibility by referring to his association with wright in the same way that mccain has padded his resume?

mouse, if you want to know why you catch so much hell on this site, it's simple: you claim to know everyone's intentions, and you never stray from the party line.