Monday, July 27, 2009

Isn't That Convenient?

I've noticed a propensity for the "believers" to discount the huge number of philandering christian leaders, priests, and ministers saying something like "Oh, they weren't really christian, then." Well, then, I guess there are no christians, at all.

How do I make that leap? Start off by taking the mindset of the "christian" apologist. S/he thinks that a "pervert" is not a christian because christianity teaches that one should not do that. Well, christianity also teaches that one should not lie, steal, cheat, etc. These are called sins. And it also teaches that everyone is a sinner and needs to repent.

So, if the sinner (pervert) is not a christian, then the others sinners (liars, cheaters, everyone) are not christians. Simple as that. I am so relieved that there are no christians!


csm said...

And for those of you bible thumpers, tell me about David and why he was still god's favorite one after all the shit he did?

Truth said...

Maybe if atheist viewed murder as a sin they wouldn't have murdered and tortured multiple millions.

So where is your high ground? That atheist have never sexually abused anyone OR is it because they don't claim it to be sin?

Yes, christians do sin. David repented and humbled himself and that is why he was after God's heart. If the sexual abusers do the same, then yes they probably are Christians but only God knows. They still must face the consequences.

For the other poster. By saying atheism has no appeal I meant in a financial sense. I'm sure having to answer to no other being is quite intoxicating for some.

take care

csm said...

Your mind set is askew, Truth. For this atheist (me, the only person I can truly talk about knowing), having "no other being to answer to" is of no importance whatsoever. And actually, I have many "other beings" to whom I answer (family, friends, co-workers, boss, humanity in general) each for different things. This, I guess, makes me a humanist.

On to some of your other statements:

(1) There is no such thing as sin, because there is no god I can sing against.

(2) Murder and torture are wrong, not because of any sky daddy telling me they are wrong, but for numerous other reasons: the shared desire of humanity not to be killed ("do unto others" if you like), the need for societal structure, the desire to avoid anarchy...

(3) My high ground? Do I have a high ground? Well, the intelligence to sniff out a scam and not believe in it, maybe.

(4) Not saying an atheist has never abused anyone. I am saying that a LARGE NUMBER of christian leaders are stinking, nasty hypocrites (in addition to being philandering child rapists).

(5) To the issue about David: exactly. Nobody knows what is in anyone's heart. I find it amusing that I take people at their word and if they call themselves a christian, so be it. But many christians are so insecure in their own "beliefs" that they have to exclude others based on nothing but their own assumptions. Amusing, indeed.

(6) Thank you, I shall take care. You too!



Are you saying because atheists ONLY consider murder wrong and not a sin, we(atheists) are programmed to murder and torture people in the future? Kinda sounds that way, but I shouldn't have to remind you of the multitudes of people murdered and tortured by Christians and other religions long before atheists were ever prevalent. Couldn't it be just a part of the human condition that some will kill and torture and not that it is some inherent defect of the "godless"? And do I need to remind you that the name linked lately to torture is none other than that famous Christian, George W. Bush!

csm said...

Good points, Bawdy. And it is somewhat telling that a christian would say that murder is wrong only because their god tells them it is wrong. That would seem to make the atheist more "moral" because we "believe" murder to be wrong without an omniscient, all powerful ,all knowing being telling us it is wrong?

Lou said...

Each atheist is allowed to determine if murder is wrong. As already brought up Mao, Stalin would beg to differ. What about Sam Harris who claims it may be moral to murder those he believers carries dangerous beliefs? Of course he has backed off that statement although it is clear in his book.

The only reason you don't hear about atheist and child abuse is because we don't tend to put atheist (humanist secularist) in front of the name of one who commits a crime. Also there are many less.

There is probably a much hotter place in hell for anyone who abuses a child.

Lou said...

"do I need to remind you that the name linked lately to torture is none other than that famous Christian, George W. Bush!"

Now that is funny! Was it the loud music or the hard beds? ha ha

Just as murder is wrong only in the eyes of the individual for an atheist, so is the fleeting definition of torture. Or could it be we have a new generation who blindly follows BHO.



I defy you to come up with any posts I have made which you could unequivocally say I am "blindly following BHO".

Lou said...

Then you haven't joined the generation. I certainly hope you are not trying to imply we do not have a large generation that will believe anything BHO tells them?

We have those whose gets a tingle up their thigh when he speaks and those who believe socialism is a grand idea even though history has proven it to be a failure time and time again. he has repeated lies time and time again yet the drones continue to follow him. Tell me you don't believe this is not the case?

Ceroill said...

Obama is charismatic, he speaks well, and is a history making president just by being bi-racial.

But-he's a politician. I always took what he said with several pinches of salt. He got a lot of people hoping, and some of those have trouble letting go. Others are feeling let down, disappointed, disillusioned and even betrayed.

Politics is a job of being pragmatic and making it look good. So far he's doing pretty well at that.


There were a whole bunch of people who blindly followed GWB. That just seems to happen when someone gets elected to the Presidency nowadays, lots of people love 'em.

My contention is the Presidency has become too powerful; the power to run the federal government should be in the hands of Congress and the states, not the Presidency. But as long as this country keeps looking to the President to wipe our collective asses, we will continue to have blind followers.


Strike that "amd the states" in the previous post, my bad.

csm said...

And you know what Lou, it works both ways. There are loud-mouthed idiots out there who blindly state that they are against everything that President Obama says just because he said it. Blind opposition, just like blind allegiance, is to be frowned upon, because it is, well, BLIND.

G said...

Really? Who? I have yet to hear anyone, even on the lunatic fringe, say that they are against everything Obama says simply because he said it.

Back to your original point. Just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn't necessarily mean he or she really is one. As is the case with most categorizations, there is a specific definition of what makes someone a Christian. If one doesn't fit that definition, then it really doesn't matter what the person claims.

Your post (as well as your view that anyone who claims to be a Christian IS a Christian) shows that either you don't really understand Christianity, or you choose to ignore the truth in order to reinforce your disdain for all things Christian.

In your other post, you asked what causes Christians to do this kind of thing, ignoring the simple fact that these behaviors are not limited to the church (or even more likely therein).

It is a tragedy that there are people who use religion as a cover to abuse people. But it should not be a surprise. People can be extremely inventive in their lusts for power, riches, sexual perversions, etc. And the Bible even warned that there would be deceivers in the church (check the book of Jude, among other passages). That's why it is so important for every person at every church to study the Bible on their own, never just taking teachers at their word, but verifying that the teachings are consistent with the Bible (Acts 17:11). If every Christian did so faithfully, every "christian" cult would cease to exist and most of the problems we see in the church today would disappear.

Lou said...

Can you blame theme csm? The guy hasn't lived up to anything he promised. Unemployment would stay below 8%? Please! Bush had the same detractors stop whining!

G is on the mark here. Obama is every bit and more dangerous than Bush. The only difference his blind followers were Bush's enemies. Those who keep looking to the government to "fix" their lives are insane. I believe that is the very definition. Keep on doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

Let me know when Obama and congress put themselves on the new health coverage. Then I will listen to their arguments. Until then, obama-care is a Obama narcissism.

csm said...

Oh, Lou, there you go again.

And I think you are probably smarter than you are letting on here. A person doesn't have to say they are against everything Obama says jsut coz he says it, their actions, words and deeds display it.

Regarding your other points, surprise, we disagree. First of all, everyone sins according to christianity. Second of all, there is no one sin that is greater than any other sin, at least not in that there bible (catholics have there venial and mortal sins, of course). So how does sinning make someone not a christian? There is a logical problem here (and that is probably what gives the christians such trouble).

And I'm all for folks actually studying the bible on their own. It would cause most of the logical and intelligent folks to recognize the fallacies and contradictions contained therein, causing most of them to drop the whole infantile religious charade.

Regarding Obama, there are things he is doing that I am less than pleased about. But overall, I give him high marks, so far, given what he inherited and the imbeciles in congress (both sides) with whom he must work. Only time will tell whether he can achieve many of his goals...

And Bush did NOT have this many detractors at this point in his presidency. That is because, in general, the right wing lunatic fringe is more vocal and powerful than anything on the left... and, oh yeah, lefties are typically wimps.