Sunday, April 25, 2010

Has Arizona Lost Its Mind?

Arizona lawmakers approved a sweeping immigration bill Monday intended to ramp up law enforcement efforts even as critics complained it could lead to racial profiling and other abuse.

The state Senate voted 17-11 nearly along party lines to send the bill to Gov. Jan Brewer, who has not taken a position on the measure championed by fellow Republicans. The House approved the bill April 13.

Sounds like fascism is alive and well in the desert.

Show me your papers, Bawdy!



Yeah, this isn't one of my state's crowning achievements. It will lead to racial profiling and with so many Latino citizens in this state, they will bear the brunt of this.

In defense of my state, this only came about because of the cowardice of the federal government, Congress especially, to actually do something to rectify the inadequacies of our immigration laws. This is actually one of the duties of the federal government as opposed to bailing out corporations and handing out entitlements as if they were Christmas presents. If we would allow as many immigrants who have the balls to leave their home country to make a better life for themselves and their families, we wouldn't be in this mess. These people will do the jobs we won't. They generally don't want to become citizens of this country, but even if they did, this only helps our demography compared to most other industrialized countries.

If we were to suck it up and take a reasonable approach, as opposed to insanity and xenophobia, and legalize drugs and immigration(security at the border would be enhanced if we are documenting all incoming immigrants as opposed to pushing them into the desolate desert)we wouldn't be having this conversation.

csm said...

I completely agree with you on this one!

John Galt said...

Well stated Bawdyscot..

..and of course here come the swastikas...the symbol of someone without a coherent argument other than ...'I am mad and I hate you'.

At least this time they used a little creativity and made the swastikas out of refried know..I'm really not sure what to make of that!?!?!

csm said...

I know what to make of it. And you do, too, if you were honest with yourself. "Show me your papers" is associated with Nazis so much that it has become a cliche. This law is the American equivalent of "show me your papers." And it is targeted at Mexicans - hence the crude, and distasteful usage of refried beans in the imagery.

Of course, the protesters are not making themselves look intelligent (they almost resemble tea baggers... almost...). Bottom line here is that this law will be rescinded in the courts... and the sooner, the better!

G said...

On what basis will it be rescinded by the courts? Have you read the actual text of the law? The authors went through great pains to make sure it would stand up to constitutional challenges.

John Galt said...

My point is not that I don't know what to make of the swastikas..I think I made it pretty clear what I make of that..simpletons that cannot voice a cogent argument resort to that symbol. If the message really is against a 'show me your papers' regime then invoke North Korea, Cuba or China...more relevent. My question was really about the use of refried beans! Isn't that self-insulting or self-stereotyping?

If citizens are really concerned about this (as they damn well should be) I must ask...where the hell have you been living the last 3 decades or so?

Let me ask you this are walking through your hometown or a town you are visiting..maybe with friends or a significant other and a LEO rolls up on you and says "We have had some trouble in the you have an ID or Driver License on you?" How do you respond?

csm said...

I'm not sure what a LEO is, but I suspect it is a some type of police officer?

I would probably respond without thinking about that yes I do a license on me (if I did happen to have it on me) and go for it. Such is the general reaction of being trained to respond to authority. With further thought, I would probably react negatively, thinking that there was no probably cause for the "LEO" to stop me. And that even if my driver's license were for a state thousands of miles away it shouldn't matter because walking in a neighborhood is not a crime, no matter what type of problems were being encountered in that neighborhood.

Anyway, I think that these types of hateful laws are becoming common as this generation experiences the beginnings of the death rattle of WASP majority. WASPs will no longer be the majority and the old, white dudes in power despise that. And the reaction will be this type of ill-advised legislation until the demographic change is complete.

John Galt said...

LEO is a Law Enforcement Officer...anyone from the local redneck sheriff to the FBI.

Your second response is the correct one csm (at least to me). Unless you are directly suspected of a crime there is no legal reason to be asked for ID..but it happens thousands of times a day. We should not put up with it. And any hispanic person citizen or not that is asked for thier ID in AZ should ask..what am I supspected of and why? Being illegal..because I am hispanic? F-off LEO! I know..easier said than done..

The entire country is out of control with law enforcement. The fact that we put up with local police being dressed in full combat gear down to fatigues and kevlar helmets, armed with everything from automatic weapons to grenades and using infantry assault tacticts to enter the homes of citizens has led us to where we are.

Differences in culture and the richness that they bring to this country are what made it great. 150yrs ago those in power thought that the Irish and the Poles were the scum of the Earth and had to be kept out..too bad we haven't learned from that as a nation...I have faith that we will.

G said...

What exactly is it that makes this law "hateful"? Doesn't it essentially require state and local police to enforce the US immigration laws that the federal govt has already put in place (but refuses to enforce)?

G said...

What Arizona's Immigration Law Really Says

G said...

Here are a couple more good editorials that are mostly on this topic, for those interested:

Arizona faces tougher sanctions than Iran by Mark Steyn

The Big Alienation by Peggy Noonan

csm said...

The law is hateful, G, because it is unnecessary. Just like the gun nuts say, enforce the laws on the books. If it is illegal to be in the country, then the police should just enforce the immigration laws (he says, somewhat snarkily).

I suspect you know what is hateful about it, G. All rhetoric aside, I would rather live in a country with (mostly) law-abiding "illegals" than to live in a country with policia having carte blanche authority to ask for "my papers."

John Galt said...

csm, it is highly amusing the way you throw around pejorative labels as if they carry any weight beyond your own opinion.

Would you do us the favor of defining what a 'gun nut' is? Someone who owns a firearm? Someone who feels as passionately about the right to bear arms as you do about the separation of church and state? Or, maybe it is whoever you feel like attempting to insult at the moment?

John Galt said...

BTW, you have already admitted that you (along with most people in the country) have abdicated the responsibility of questioning the policia when they ask for your that argument doesn't hold water.

csm said...

You're relatively new around here John. The regulars here know that I own a gun. Just because you don't like the term "gun nut" doesn't make it a pejorative nor does it mean that you don't understand it. Or maybe you are truly dense and do not understand it.

John Galt said...'s whoever you feel like insulting at the could have saved the pontificating and just said..whoever I feel like insulting at the moment.

I love the term gun-nut..I love anything with nut added to the end.

G said...


Aside from the obvious oxymoron of 'law-abiding "illegals,"' law enforcement officers already have authority to ask for "your papers." Or have you never heard "license and registration, please" at a traffic stop?

Also, non-citizens are ALREADY required to carry ID and proof that they are in the U.S. legally. That law has been on the books long before either of us were born.

You must be using some ultra-modern dictionary because according to my understanding of English, "unnecessary" and "hateful" aren't even remotely synonymous (or even related). And your little "I think you know" argument adds nothing to the validity of your claim that the law is hateful. I suspect it is just a way to divert attention away from the sheer emptiness of your original statement.

In fact, your claim that it is unnecessary is ridiculous. If there were no people (or very few) entering the country illegally, then it would be unnecessary. If the feds were enforcing the laws currently on the books, then it would be unnecessary. But the truth is that the feds have been ignoring the problem for decades (exacerbating it, really, by intentionally providing services to illegals).

State and local cops haven't had full authority to enforce immigration law, until now in Arizona. If the federal govt is negligent in its duties, I have no problem with states taking that authority upon themselves.

csm said...

If there are already laws on the books, as you state in your comment, that prohibit illegal entry into the country, that require legal entrants to carry documents, and that allow law enforcement to ask for them, then just how the fuck is this new law "required?"

It is the last gasp of the WASP majority flailing at the scary brown-skinned insurgents who are killing our way of life. This too shall pass as whites of European ancestry become the minority. But hateful laws like this will sprout up as WASPs try to maintain control as long as possible.

Mike aka Dragonfly said...

The quandary is quite simple here. Arizona put into place a law to do what the Feds will not and that is enforce existing immigration laws Who can blame them? I have an uncle in Arizona who has informed me that things have never been worse in Phoenix.

Don't blame Arizona for their plight and solution, blame Feds who are more concerned with control of Manufacturing to banking rather than protecting the citizens on the borders.

Those who become angry are clueless as well as without ideas. The majority of Americans support their aim. The borders are open to come legally. I wish all of those lawful entrants well.

G said...

Because, csm, FEDERAL law officers are supposed to enforce FEDERAL laws. The FEDERAL govt is responsible for securing the border. Those things are outside the jurisdiction of state and local law enforcement. Since the FEDERAL govt refuses to enforce FEDERAL law, the STATE govt felt it was necessary for the interests of their residents to pass a law that enables STATE AND LOCAL officers to do the job the FEDERAL govt won't. Is that clear enough for you?

As for your second paragraph, did you get that idiocy from someone like Louis Farrakhan, or did you come up with it yourself? It seems that the longer you feed at the trough of leftist rhetoric, the more detached you become from reality.

csm said...


I honestly couldn't tell you a single thing ever said by Louis Farrakhan.

Lou said...

How about our Prez is the Messiah? That was a classic

John Galt said... must really be out of those brown skinned insurgents are only Mexicans? How does this Arizona issue impact Indians? Or Inuits? Or Arabs? Or Chinese? Are you really that myopic? Do those flailing WASPs include the 55,000 WASPs that have adopted Chinese children? Hopefully you are only saying these things to incite responses on your blog and you are not that clueless.

csm said...

Lou, I agree, if that is a Farrakhan quote it sure sounds insane. Perhaps directing me to the actual quote would get me to agree completely?

And I'm not sure what your point is, John. Are you saying because some WASPs have adopted Chinese children that there is no racism against Asians? Or are you saying that the majority of the immigrants in your area are Chinese and Arabs?

Regarding Indians, white folk did a pretty good job of annihilating them, so there aren't too many Native Americans around any more. At least not so many that scared WASPs start enacting laws to discriminate against them.

John Galt said...

No, the point is that Mexicans are not the only non-white immigrants and I don't see anyone flailing or performing any other gyrations to keep them out of the country. Quite on the contrary many people from those races/countries are actively recruited to come here and that is a great thing.

Closing the porous border to the south to end massive illegal entry to the US has nothing to do with race. Although many who promote 'group' politics would love to make everyone think that.

And just an fyi, Indians are from...umm..INDIA! Last time I was there it was not exactly a rampantly causasion area. In addition, it is one of the nations where those brown skinned insurgents are actively recruited to legally come to this country mostly by those flailing WASPs.

The banality of your statement is mind boggling yet typical given the effectiveness of politcal machines in creating divsions among social and racial groups in order to remain in power.


I just read a story about the problems foreign runway models have had trying to get the special visas that foreign professional athletes receive. At this point they have to get the less special and longer to get visas regular people have to get. Let us all shed a tear.

The visa you are speaking of, John, is the H-1b1 and they are very limited. Many think(Bill Gates, for one)we should be issuing many more of these types of visas because of the need in our technology industries. I don't have a problem with any increase in visas issued for any class of people as long as they are not violent criminals.

I agree with you though John. This isn't about race as much as it has to do with nationality. If you are a Philipino nurse or a South Korean scientist, we don't give a shit. If you happen to come from Honduras and trim trees or are a Guatamalan dishwasher we get all pissed off. Hell, if you wanted to pick lettuce in Yuma(and Americans love to have that variety of produce ALL YEAR ROUND)and you lived south of the border the reasonable situation would be to be allowed to cross the border to do your work only to cross back to go home at night. Well none of this is reasonable and it is not supposed to be. Most Americans don't like Mexicans and other Central and Southern Americans, they don't like their language, they are suspicious of their intentions and are filled with xenophobic preconceptions. This has happened every single time a people which looked different than the American Caucasian has tried to avail themselves of the freedoms we hold dear. Why should this time be any different?

Dragonfly said...

"Most Americans don't like Mexicans and other Central and Southern Americans"

The biggest crock of bull ever written. Americans don't like Mexican's who come across our border illegally. Much like Mexicans don't like Central Americans who come across theirs illegally. Turning this into a problem with Americans is the most idiotic thing you have uttered Bawdy. Say hi to Big O for me. You are as bad as his circus of idiots


If we had an affection for immigrants we would have immigration laws which reflected this. But we don't. And this has happened with every new type(nationality) of immigrant which decides to come over. It happened with the Chinese, Japanese, Southern Europeans and now Mexicans and south Americans. This is undeniable. But once we have a significant population of these nationalities, then we are all for them and love them and their contributions to our society. We just have to get over the original shock of seeing different looking people running around here.

These immigrants today are illegal, but when you fill the law books with shitty laws upon shitty laws, it gets harder and harder to stay legal even if you were born here.

csm said...

...what has been largely absent from the public debate about the legality and morality of SB 1070 is Arizona's blatant violation of international human rights law, as underscored by several U.N. experts.

The law flies in the face of Arizona's human rights obligations, particularly the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD), which the United States ratified in 1994 and which is binding on all levels of federal, state and local governments, including Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer, who signed the bill.

G said...

Sounds like more analysis from another commentator who hasn't read the actual bill.

Again, all it really does is give state and local police the authority to enforce federal immigration laws as they already stand.

But here's another little item to consider. It was pointed out to me recently that there is already a law on California's books that has language almost identical to the controversial part of the new Arizona law.

California Penal Code Section 834b

So I guess the heavily left-leaning, politically correct, feel-your-pain progressives in California are hateful racists as well. Right?


I was going to ask you g about the California law, but I didn't know if you were still posting here. I had gotten an e-mail about it last week and was on the fence as to whether it was legit or not(so much shit I get e-mailed to me I am sorry I open for one reason or another). This surely makes one wonder why this conflagration didn't start in California and why Califirnians are feeling so superior to us lowly Arizonans.

Dragonfly said...

Check out Muller vs Menya decided by SCOTUS just a few years back. Where were the president and his men when this was decided by SCOTUS unanimously?

The Arizona law limits when you can pull over a suspect while Muller vs Menya decided that you can be pulled over for no reason. The next time CA or CSM want to call Arizonians bigots, give him a taste of Muller.

It is great to see a state telling the Feds to get bent especially when the Feds are not doing their job. I may be becoming libertarian!


I was beginning to wonder Mike. The heartening thing I find is that states are doing more and more to puch back on federal power. Whether it is California trying to outdo the EPA on CAFE standards, the almost complete repudiation of REAL ID or Arizona prodding the feds to man up on immigration. When you add the latest blatant power grab Washington has foisted on us and the rise of the Tea Party movement, I see a showdown and hopefully the Supreme Court has the gonads to really enforce the federalist side of the Constitution. The conservatives on the Court like to talk like strict Constitutionalists, now they have to decide like they are.

G said...

I'm still here, Bawdy. I just don't check things out as often since the posts have been so few and far between for the past few months.

I don't think much of the finger wagging is coming from the general public in California. It's just from the usual crowd trying to score political points (i.e. liberal politicians and their supportive leftist groups).